“For me, May 4 is an event of my heart,” says Guntis Ulmanis, the first President of the restored Latvia, and emphasizes – “Latvia would not be what it is today if Russian troops had not been successfully withdrawn in the 1990s”. About conversations with Yeltsin and the Skrunda locator bombing, about Russian generals and Clinton’s advice, a conversation with Gunta Ulmani At the crossroads of an era.
The guest of the program is Guntis Ulmanis, the first President of the newly independent Latvia, and we start with a quote from his presidential speech, which sounded at a very symbolic moment for Latvia. On May 4, 1995, a monster of the Russian army and Soviet occupation was blown up in Skrunda – the Skrunda radar. Being present at this event, President Ulmanis said: “We are the only and rightful heirs of this land and this country. We must know how to remind ourselves as a small but fearless nation. We want to live in safety and peace with all our neighbors near and far, but we will decide our own lives. One of the main cornerstones of our security is internal order, purposefulness and stable national life. We need to build our political culture so that election campaigns and parliamentary debates do not antagonize people”.
That’s what the then State President said 29 years ago on an important day for Latvia – May 4.
We haven’t met for a long time, you were also seen less in the public lately, how are you doing now?
Guntis Ulmanis: You know, I would like to avoid such vulgar words that good, or even worse, as they are now commenting, but in general I feel good. I am satisfied with many things, just like each of us, I am nervous, experienced and dissatisfied with some things, but in general I always compare pre-war Latvia. I mean, before the Second World War, which lived only a short time and achieved a lot, and my measure is always what we have done, living in free Latvia, for almost twice as long. And there is something to be proud of and something to live for, in any case – we smile, we live, we create our personal lives, we work for the good of the country, we work for the good of our children, for the children’s future. And I haven’t stopped thinking about what will happen tomorrow.
And when I once left the presidency, I was told, it will be very difficult for you to associate your future with what was these six years. No, it wasn’t difficult. You just have to feel this responsibility before the country, the people, and also gratitude that you were in such a position that you were able to do what was required of you and, as I wrote in my book at the time “Not much is required of you,” that’s how it is , it’s basically every day. In short, I would agree with the saying that “Think about what you will do tomorrow”, the day after tomorrow, then the time will come, then let’s see what will be done.
Mr. Ulmanis, our conversation takes place on May 4. May 4th 1990 – how do you remember this day, did you also listen to the live radio broadcast from Parliament. This counting of votes, then the people at the Supreme Council?
Guntis Ulmanis: November 18 and May 4 are often compared. Well, there is something similar, but there is something that we are not entitled to essentially compare. Because everyone had their own strength. Own circumstances, own rules. For me, May 4 is an event of the heart, November 18 is for me a history that I worked for and that we all created together.
But on May 4, I simply fell in love with all those deputies who sat in the hall of the Supreme Council. And maybe not only in those who voted for, but for that team, for that spirit of collectivism, for how quickly this flower of trust and love opened in the gardens of Latvia. We were all like brothers, like sisters, how we wanted to kiss each other, hug and love, Those people who came out of that hall then, they are always in front of my eyes. And two personalities – Ziedonis and İvāns – they cannot be overestimated in any way, they must be in Latvia’s heart even when maybe we will have each other already disappeared from this land.
But the 4th of May is similar to the 18th in one respect, as incredible as the 18th of November, as incredible as the 4th of May seemed to many, and yet the action was stronger than thoughts, than doubts. And the next thing has already passed, as we sit here and talk.
Mr. Ulmani, I think you have a very good memory of another May 4th. It is May 4, 1995, when the Skrunda radar is blown up. Then you are also present in this event and just before these rumbles are heard and this monster collapses, you also give a speech. I agree, listening to it now, that this speech of yours in Skrunda was one of the most important in the years of your presidency.
At that time, you also said that “we want to live in safety and peace with our neighbors, but we will decide for ourselves about our lives”. Today, after 29 years, listening to these words of yours, how does it feel?
Guntis Ulmanis: If I had to speak at a similar event today, and each of us can imagine what these events could be like. I would say the same words, one to one, signing with my heart, my soul, my conviction. Because it is easy to speak if you speak according to your nature, according to your convictions, which cannot be changed by any events. No way. That and nothing else. And this is the topic, this monster, this locator, these long talks with the Western countries and these excuses that Russia needs, Russia must be understood, Russia must almost be loved, because the Second World War ended the way it ended. This locator remained a shadow that we still collected, looked after for four or five years…
(..) Staying with Putin, you must have also wondered why he started this cruel war and maybe you have a prediction of how it all might end for Putin and what it might end up with for Russia.
Guntis Ulmanis: End… yes…. Can anything end in the sense we are talking about today? I think two years have shown that things change at lightning speed and real values change as well. However much we do not want to say that there are values that are eternal and that do not change. But in this case, the world overestimates its views on many events. There is only one option – to seek consolidation among all countries of the world, involving China, India, and, as strange as it sounds, North Korea. It’s just that practice with Russia already shows that ignorance does not save the situation, you have to look for another way out.
And if these new weapons, which we are talking about now, and I hope that it is already the beginning of May, and by this time these weapons will already prove themselves on the Ukrainian front, and they will not bring some sense of balance, a sense of invincibility to the Russians.
Something has to change, because the way they think today, it’s not real, it’s a total war, because if millions or hundreds of thousands of soldiers from each side are shooting at each other, it can’t be stopped in one day.
But Ukraine must stay. Leaders of Ukraine must understand that Western policy is not only in weapons, but Western policy is also in attitude in all peacetime issues, economic issues, relations with other countries and so on and so forth…
The fight against corruption, which is also in Ukraine…
Guntis Ulmanis: You know, the word corruption is quite hard to pronounce, because we are also not without sin in these matters. And because before I condemn anyone in these matters, I think that corruption started with ourselves. If there is no corruption in that or another western country, there will be no corruption in Ukraine either, because Ukraine, if there is corruption, can only develop with the direct or indirect support of many of the West and the civilized world. Because you can save a hundred euros, 1000 euros, but you can’t save millions, keep them in foreign banks and then think that everything is fine. This is a very complex question. I want Ukrainians to deal with this issue themselves.
In Ukraine, it is currently a real war, but in recent years there has been a lot of talk about a hybrid war, about how Russia interferes in the political processes of various countries, about how Russia tries to influence the election results. We feel this hybrid war in Latvia as well. But you once said that Russia actually started the hybrid war against Latvia from the first days when we restored our independence.
Guntis Ulmanis: It is. In the first convocation of the Saeima, there was, I dare say, no such left-oriented party as it is today.
In the fifth Saeima, the first after the restoration of independence?
Guntis Ulmanis: Yes, after independence. Sometimes those numbers confuse me. I was very careful with them, it was from 93 to 99.
But little by little, in the Saeima, in the society, this division was formed on a national basis. Well, that was a very real beginning of the hybrid war. And where could Russia try its hand, if not in its immediate neighbors.
Let’s admit one thing – Russia has had a very strong system of foreign affairs since the time of the tsar. Which includes not only diplomatic questions, but also these questions that you asked me now. The current Russian foreign minister, Lavrov, when he worked at the United Nations, and Kozyrev was the foreign minister, then Lavrov was like an angel from Russia, we talked to him, and he said, you will be fine and everything will be fine, and that’s it. A person cannot change like that, if you listen to him today, what dictatorial tendencies he has, maybe even greater than Putin’s. I don’t know what they talked about among themselves, it would be interesting to listen someday, but the hybrid war started when a country next to Russia forms its own independent policy, independent systems. And now, if we say that we cannot believe the Russian mass media and everything connected with it, we ourselves must also be very critical in our attitude towards our mass media, about what we say and towards our attitudes. This is also what we witness happening in our political society these days.
These days, in the last months, there are extensive discussions about business relations with Russia, whether to trade with Russia, whether Russian grain and other goods are transhipped in our ports. You have said about this – business must be morally principled, no cooperation with Russia. What about sports? After the occupation of Crimea in 2014, everything continued – our “Dinamo”, KHL. You were also in charge of the “Dinamo” system for many years, and “Gazprom” people were sitting in the “Arena Riga” box. Sports and politics and sports, as well as one of Russia’s ways of keeping your hand on the pulse, how did you feel at that time?
Guntis Ulmanis: We do say that we have all thought a lot over these two years and changed a lot.
If we see this completely one hundred percent destruction policy of Russia in the last two years, then there can be no more compromise. Not in sports, not in business. And I am surprised by the fact that in business we often justify ourselves – we will send this grain to that border, that – to that border and so on and so forth.
The same in sports, in my opinion, any sports relations with Russia at the moment are simply criminal. Just criminal. And this is my opinion, which has changed in these last years, because I got involved in sports after I had done a lot with Russia, let’s say, necessary things. The words “good things” wouldn’t work, because each of us had our own way of thinking – the Russian had one, I had the other.
But when we these good things, it always seemed that if we in culture, in art, and many of our artists have passed their experience in the vast countryside of Russia and were not the worst… It was such an era when we had to cooperate, because again I will quote Clinton, he said: “You can rely on me, but remember one thing – you have one other neighbor, only one, and you have to live with this neighbor in such a way that we can together with you solve further issues in development.”
Such is life.
Russian athletes must be at the Olympics, which are coming up in Paris, and Belarus?
Guntis Ulmanis: My personal opinion that no.
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